AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman.

We turn now to what Variety magazine has called “the most controversial movie of the year” and what Salon calls “the movie Trump doesn’t want you to see.” The Apprentice is a new biopic about Donald Trump’s rise to fame in the ’80s and his close relationship with Roy Cohn, who served as a chief counsel to Senator Joseph McCarthy during the Red Scare of the 1950s. Earlier this year, lawyers for Trump attempted to block screenings of the film, claiming the movie is a, quote, “concoction of lies that repeatedly defames President Trump.” Despite the threats, the film is opening in New York today. This is a trailer for The Apprentice.

ROY COHN: [played by Jeremy Strong] Yes?

DONALD TRUMP: [played by Sebastian Stan] Hello. This is Donald Trump for Mr. Cohn. Thank you so much.

ROY COHN: Donald who?

Roy Cohn. Nice to meet you.

DONALD TRUMP: The Roy Cohn? You’re brutal.

ROY COHN: Guilty as charged.

DONALD TRUMP: How do you always win?

ROY COHN: There’s rules. The first rule is attack, attack, attack.

DONALD TRUMP: It’s going to be the finest building in the city, maybe — maybe the country — in the world.

ROY COHN: Rule two: Admit nothing, deny everything.

DONALD TRUMP: There’s never been anything like this of this magnitude, this quality.

Ooh! Cheese balls over here.

ROY COHN: What do you do?

DONALD TRUMP: You want one?

ROY COHN: No, it looks totally disgusting.

DONALD TRUMP: Cheese balls.

ROY COHN: Rule three: No matter what happens, you claim victory and never admit defeat.

You have to be willing to do anything to anyone to win.

You have a big [bleep]. You’ve got to work on that.

IVANA TRUMP: [played by Maria Bakalova] Your face look like an orange.

ROY COHN: Attack, attack, attack. Deny everything, admit nothing. Never admit defeat.

RONA BARRETT: [played by Valerie O’Connor] What if you lost your fortune today?

DONALD TRUMP: Well, then maybe I’ll run for president. I don’t know.

ROY COHN: I say if you’re indicted, you’re invited.

AMY GOODMAN: The trailer for the new film The Apprentice, a dramatized portrayal of Donald Trump’s close relationship with Roy Cohn in the 1980s. Roy Cohn, chief counsel to McCarthy, also largely responsible for the execution of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg in 1953.

We’re joined now by the award-winning Iranian Danish filmmaker Ali Abbasi, who directed The Apprentice, which premiered earlier this year at the Cannes Film Festival. His previous films include Holy Spider, set in Tehran, and Border, set in and around Stockholm. Democracy Now!’s Nermeen Shaikh and I spoke to Ali earlier this week and asked him about why he decided to focus on Roy Cohn and Donald Trump in this film.

ALI ABBASI: For me, The Apprentice is not a Trump biopic as such. It’s about a, you know, transformative relationship of him and the mentorship of Roy Cohn. You know, it’s sort of a buddy movie for two villains, if you like, or two superheroes or, you know, two antiheroes, whichever way you want to look at it.

And, you know, Roy was a wonderfully colorful character. He was, as you were mentioning, Joseph McCarthy’s right-hand man, you know, was sort of a legal wonderkid, coming, like — I think he was like 21, 22, when he joined the legal team of Joseph McCarthy, and was very instrumental in sort of persecuting this whole sort of the Red Scare. And after that, actually, you know, he was also involved in the Lavender Scare, which was persecuting homosexuals in federal government — himself being a closeted gay man.

Anyways, later, in the ’60s, you know, he starts his law practice in New York. But what he really does there, he becomes sort of a fixer and a socialite, where he connects people. He has immense political power. You know, he’s good friends with Richard Nixon. You know, he knows a lot of people. You know, at some point he’s repping all the five mob families in New York at the same time, you know, and Andy Warhol and people from Studio 54 and celebrities and politicians, and you name it.

And I think that he was also a PR genius. You know, he was extremely good at sort of getting the hang of, you know, media. Everyone, all the reporters loved him. You know, he was very good at getting stuff out there. And he was the person who sort of built Trump, you know, as a person, as a brand, as an identity, from ground up, in a way, and, you know, taught him to create his own reality when he needs.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: I mean, you also said about the film that it’s also — it’s about the American system.

ALI ABBASI: That’s right.

AMY GOODMAN: A system that allowed someone like Roy Cohn to operate in the way that he did. So, was there something about the system that you wanted to convey in the film?

ALI ABBASI: Yeah. Look, I’m born and raised in Iran, and, as such, I have this sort of outside view of the American politics and justice and legal system. And I think, you know, this system was not created by Donald Trump. It wasn’t created even by Roy Cohn. The system is in place, and these people are very good at navigating it.

This is a system where, you know, you can bury people with legal firepower if you have enough money. You can, you know, pull different strings. You can, you know — you can almost buy votes, you know? At the same time, it is not — it is a democracy, but it’s, I would say, a flawed democracy, which makes it, like, full of different loopholes and different, like, back doors and whatnot. And I think these people were experts in using those loopholes and using those sort of corners and fringes to get what they want from the system.

At the same time, you know, the whole sort of American society, as such, is based also on this social Darwinism, you know, which is winner takes it all, and either you’re a killer, or you’re killed. And that sort of ideological backbone is there. You know, you can see it with Donald. You can see with Roy. You can see it with Fred Trump, who was Donald’s dad. He was — he wanted his sons and children to become killers, you know?

AMY GOODMAN: And speaking of which, in terms of the film, the attempted killing of the film, the Cannes Film Festival, 11-minute standing ovation, but also a legal letter from the Trump campaign team. Is that right?

ALI ABBASI: Yeah. Yeah, we got a — it didn’t take long. We got this cease-and-desist letter. And basically, what it says is, you know, if you attempt to distribute this rubbish and whatnot and try to interfere in our election with foreign money and a guy from Iran and, you know, all the sort of — it wasn’t really addressed to me or Gabe, as much as it was addressed to —

AMY GOODMAN: Gabe Sherman.

ALI ABBASI: Gabe Sherman, right. It was more, I guess, addressed to his base, you know, in a way. So, you know. But the threat is there, and we’ll see in a few days what’s come out of it.

AMY GOODMAN: Let’s go to a clip of The Apprentice.

ROY COHN: [played by Jeremy Strong] You want to know how I win? I’m going to let you in on a little secret. There’s rules, Roy Cohn’s three rules of winning. The first rule is the simplest: attack, attack, attack.

BARBARA KATZ: [played by Edie Inksetter] Civil Rights, Katz.

ROY COHN: I hope the putz you’re stuffing has got real money, because after I get you fired, you’re sure going to need it.

BARBARA KATZ: Excuse me?

ROY COHN: Unless you drop your baseless litigation, I am countersuing the Justice Department for $100 million. And you are going to rue the day that you ever filed this —

BARBARA KATZ: Who is this?

ROY COHN: Roy Cohn, calling on behalf of my client, Donald J. Trump.

AMY GOODMAN: And this is another clip from The Apprentice, in which Trump is being interviewed over the phone as he rides in the back of the car with Roy Cohn, who’s advising him what to say.

ROY COHN: [played by Jeremy Strong] Listen, Judy, about a hundred reporters were crawling up my [bleep] to get this interview, and I gave you the exclusive.

DONALD TRUMP: [played by Sebastian Stan] Yes, hello, Judy. This is Donald Trump. I’m very excited, very excited to talk to you.

ROY COHN: Be excited. Don’t say you’re excited.

JUDY: So, Donald, now that the lawsuit is behind you, what do you want to do next?

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I intend to acquire the Commodore, and I’m planning on making it the best and the finest building in the city, maybe — maybe the country.

ROY COHN: The world.

DONALD TRUMP: In the world, Judy. In the world. It’s going to be the finest building in the world. It’s going to be a spectacular hotel, absolutely spectacular, first class. And —

JUDY: That sounds very ambitious. Where do you get the drive, still so young, Donald?

DONALD TRUMP: I’ve got flair, and I’m smart. So, I think that’s going to make successful. But I also want to stay humble.

ROY COHN: Sorry, Judy. Listen, let’s do the rest in person. And bring a photographer, OK?

DONALD TRUMP: Sorry, Roy.

ROY COHN: No, I mean, listen, it’s your life.

DONALD TRUMP: You caught me off guard.

ROY COHN: You’ve got a ways to go, but you’re learning.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: So, those are clips from your really magnificent film, The Apprentice, which will open Friday here in New York. So, I mean, you know, one of the things that’s so interesting and well done in the film is this — precisely this relationship, the relationship between Roy Cohn and Trump. So, if you could say, what did — what most surprised you when you worked with — you were working with a journalist, Gabriel Sherman, who’s written about Trump for decades, in writing the screenplay. What most surprised you in what you discovered about Roy Cohn independently and Trump independently, but also about their relationship, which is really what the film tracks, from beginning to end?

ALI ABBASI: Look, these people, they’ve been depicted many times, you know, Mr. Trump, obviously, in many different sketches and satire. And, you know, they’ve been sort of laughed at and villainized and, you know — and you have Angels in America, where Roy is a major character.

I think what we tried to do here, which — you know, differently, in a way, was to try to focus on their humanity. You know, we try to deal with them as human beings, you know, who have real pain, real feelings, real pleasure. And I think that’s where the surprising part is, actually, you know, that someone like Roy Cohn, being the person he was, you know, being a pretty malicious political operative, among other things, also could recite classic Persian poetry from a thousand years ago, also, you know, was generous to his friends and loyal, you know? And the same goes with Mr. Trump. You know, everyone said, OK, you know, when we were doing the movie, that — you know, all my liberal friends was like, you know, “We can’t believe that he has feelings. We can’t believe that he ever get affected.” And one of the things I — you know, when I was reading about it, the interesting thing is, for example, his relationship with with his brother Freddy, who sort of got crushed by their dad, you know, and by the pressure he put on them to become killers. And I think that really affected Donald, you know, really affected his relationship with alcohol, you know, because Freddy died of alcoholism. And, you know, there’s real feeling and real trauma there.

So, if you dig a little bit under the surface, you find real emotions and real feelings, real human beings. At the same time, they are these two, like, relentless opportunists. You know, you can see it even in their own relationship. There’s always been love and affection and real sort of loyalty, at the same time as Roy, at the end, was, you know, sick and was dying of AIDS and got disbarred, and Mr. Trump didn’t really have a use for him. He was distancing himself from him, you know, because also, like, his image projection of, like, this macho image, the WWF guy, or whatever, in the ’80s, you know, that was in contrast with, like, having a person with friends with AIDS, you know?

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to go back to when Roy Cohn was his lawyer.

ALI ABBASI: Right.

AMY GOODMAN: This is the early ’70s, when Donald is working with his father, Fred Trump, and the DOJ, the Department of Justice, sues them for racial discrimination, preventing people of color, primarily African Americans, from living in their housing developments in Queens. This clip begins with Roy Cohn speaking in court as Trump’s defense attorney.

ROY COHN: [played by Jeremy Strong] Objection. The Civil Rights Division did not file a lawsuit. Frankly, it compiled a 48-page press release, as far as I can tell. Now, the government has failed to spell out one single fact concerning alleged discriminatory practices against Blacks by the Trumps. I motion to have this case dismissed on summary judgment.

JUDGE EDWARD NEAHER: [played by Frank Moore] Overruled. Counselor, continue.

BARBARA KATZ: [played by Edie Inksetter] Thank you, Your Honor. Agent Green, what led you to believe that you were denied a lease at Trump properties based on your race?

THEODORE GREEN: [played by Jai Jai Jones] Well, not only did the newspaper advertisement state…

ROY COHN: That’s Walter, DOJ. He runs the show.

THEODORE GREEN: I saw three Caucasian couples approved before me.

ROY COHN: Objection, speculation.

BARBARA KATZ: Mr. Cohn.

ROY COHN: How can he say for sure —

BARBARA KATZ: Mr. Cohn.

ROY COHN: — they were Caucasian?

BARBARA KATZ: Please allow Agent Green to answer the question.

ROY COHN: I’ve seen Puerto Ricans whiter than my tush after a long run.

BARBARA KATZ: Your Honor.

AMY GOODMAN: That’s a clip from The Apprentice, and it talks about this really horrific time as they’re gaining their wealth, where they are preventing people of color from getting into their housing development. But talk about why this was so seminal for you, Roy Cohn representing Trump.

ALI ABBASI: This was how they met. You know, DOJ had a really good case, actually. And they marked Black applicants with a “C.” That’s actually from the case. So, it was sort of —

AMY GOODMAN: “C” for?

ALI ABBASI: “Colored.” So, this was sort of beyond reasonable doubt, you can say. And, you know, again, you can look at reality in two ways. You can say, “Oh, the Trumps are racist,” whatnot. You can also say a lot of people with the same kind of property and same kind of wealth, they just didn’t want, you know, people of color or working-class people or problems. And these were one of them, you know? Whichever way you look at it, it was problematic.

DOJ had a good, really good case. And everyone was telling him, you know, “You have to settle. You have to — you know, you have to give up.” And then he sort of bumped into Roy, and Roy was the only person who said, “No, we’re going to countersue the government, of course. You know, we’re going to go on attack,” which they did, you know, with him. And they settled out of court with, you know, almost not even a slap on the wrist. You know, they got sort of — do this sort of symbolic program, and, you know. And that’s where I think Donald saw the power of Roy Cohn, and that’s how their mentorship started, actually.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: So, I want to go back to what you were talking about earlier, which is that, you know, there have been many depictions of Roy Cohn. There have been many depictions, obviously many more, of Trump. But what this film does differently, and it does do it differently, is it makes them full characters, right? So you see them also in an empathetic light.

ALI ABBASI: That’s right.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Do you think — and earlier, you mentioned that you’re an outsider to the U.S. You’ve lived in Tehran, you’ve lived in Stockholm, and now you’re settled in Copenhagen. Do you think your being an outsider is what enabled you to see them and their relationship in that light, in a way that they have not been represented in American depictions, let’s say?

ALI ABBASI: I certainly think it helped, because I don’t have the same — you know, I don’t have a horse in this race. I’m not Democrat. I’m not Republican. You know, I don’t have an interest, as such, in the party politics. So I look at it as people and relationships in a relatively neutral way, as such.

Now, that doesn’t mean, like, value-wise, I think everything’s neutral and there are good people on both sides. I don’t believe that, you know? But as so far as the story goes and the characters, yes, I can — I think I can investigate that and not be sort of, you know, intimidated by this side or the other side, not to be — you know, not to be thinking so much of who would love this, who would hate this.

AMY GOODMAN: And you, as an Iranian filmmaker, who’s done such exceptional work in the past, your view growing up of the United States and what happened before and after the Iranian Revolution —

ALI ABBASI: Right.

AMY GOODMAN: — of 1979?

ALI ABBASI: I mean, we used to be an American colony, basically, before ’79. And that, overnight —

AMY GOODMAN: With the U.S. supporting the shah.

ALI ABBASI: Yeah. And, you know, not only supporting, but also culturally, economically, it was much deeper than supporting just the shah. And then, after that, that changed overnight, you know, and we became sort of archenemy of U.S. And growing up in that and growing up in that environment, you sort of have this sort of negative space that is inhibited by the great Satan, America, as the Islamic Republic was calling it. So, you cannot help but by being, you know, engaged or interested in U.S. politics, you know?

But also, I think, as someone who grew up in the Middle East, you know, one thing that our experience, at least, talking for myself, is, there is not a huge difference between a Democratic president and a Republican president. There’s not a — you know, we feel like the bombs are going to drop anyways. You know, we’re going to get the short end of the stick anyways. And I think that sort of neutralizes this debate a little bit, you know, which is interesting, because when you look at the sort of — you know, both the Democrats and Republicans, they try to create this inevitability of the other side being the villain, the other side would destroy this country, and all that. But if you look at it, Fred Trump, his dad, Donald’s dad, lifelong Democrat, Democratic donor; Roy Cohn, Democrat; Mr. Trump himself, a relatively, say, pro-abortion Democrat gone to an anti-abortion Republican. What does it tell you about the U.S. political system?

AMY GOODMAN: And, of course, though, Roy Cohn was the ally of the Wisconsin Republican hatemonger Joe McCarthy, though he survives when Joe McCarthy ultimately takes on the Army and dies, but also in the execution of the Rosenbergs. That comes up a few times in your film. And for people who aren’t familiar with what happened on June 21st, 1953, and Roy Cohen’s role in that?

ALI ABBASI: That’s right, because he was instrumental in getting them, getting the Rosenbergs executed. And, you know —

AMY GOODMAN: Ethel and Julius.

ALI ABBASI: Ethel and Julius. And there are different accounts, you know, as like how guilty they were of their charge of espionage. But I think the accounts are sort of — people generally agree that Julius might have been guilty, but Ethel wasn’t really, you know, guilty, or if she was, she wouldn’t be guilty of execution, at least. That much is, I think, pretty well known and accepted.

And I think Roy really pushed for them to be executed and to make a statement, and, you know, basically manipulated the whole legal system and the judge and all that. And that’s a really good example of what kind of person he was as a political operative.

And again, this is a tradition, sort of. In a way, there is — if you are interested in genealogy of American populist right, there is a line going from Joseph McCarthy, Roy Cohn, you know, Richard Nixon, Roger Stone, Paul Manafort, Ronald Reagan and over to Mr. Trump.

AMY GOODMAN: Acclaimed Iranian Danish filmmaker Ali Abbasi directs The Apprentice, which opens today in theaters around the country and the world. The film stars Sebastian Stan as Donald Trump, Jeremy Strong as Roy Cohn — Strong is famous for starring in the Succession TV series — and Maria Bakalova, who plays Trump’s first wife Ivana. The film also deals with Ivana’s allegations that Trump raped her. Trump’s lawyers have sent Ali Abbasi a cease-and-desist order.

Visit democracynow.org to see our interviews with Trump’s niece Mary and nephew Fred.

Happy birthday to Miguel Nogueira. I’m Amy Goodman. Thanks for joining us.